I think what initially led me to window shop at the Agnosis Emporium was my scientific schooling where we are taught the scientific process of searching for answers in the physical world around us. We're taught to look for proof or evidence of the various hypothesis that we are trying to answer and when you can't find proof for one hypothesis, you either keep looking, or you change your hypothesis and start again. This sort of training can lead many, myself included, into a pseudo-reality where you can only ever claim something to be true when you have 100%, unrefutable evidence that it is true. Well, to make a long story short, I think you all know where I go with this. The existence, or non-existence of God clearly falls into the "not 100% proved" category. This is where agnosticism gains it's appeal. I do not have the proof to either prove or disprove that God exists, so I do not take a position either way. Seems like a pretty safe, and a pretty rational place to be, until you start applying this logic to other areas of your life. This is where this position really started to become very non-compelling for me.
Do we really have 100% proof of anything? As I alluded to in a previous post - Can any one of us prove, with 100% certainty that we exist? Can you prove that we are not all plugged into the Matrix. Could I prove that we are? Can you prove to me with 100% certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow? Could you prove to me that the Santa Claus doesn't exist? Nothing is 100% provable. I pulled this paragraph off of this website - I think it sums up the thrust of my point.
"With the question of God's existence we can look at scientific theories and evidence, philosophical and theological arguments, personal experiences, historical records etc and decide where the evidence points. Does the evidence suggest that God exists or not? The Pope obviously believes that there is good evidence for God's existence, whereas I interpret the evidence as indicating that God doesn't exist. We are both so confident in the way we interpret the evidence that we are prepared to say we are sure we are right. In the same way that we are sure the Sun will rise tomorrow. However, as extremely confident each of us is with our respective views, neither of us is prepared to say that we can prove this claim. The suggestion by agnostics is that if we can't get absolute proof, 100% certainty, then we shouldn't accept 99.9999% either or 90% or 75%. This is ridiculous. This is a silly 'all or nothing' mentality. We either prove it conclusively or we say we have no idea. Apart from agnostics nobody in the real world works this way. You examine the evidence for and against a certain claim and make your stand accordingly. You look at the evidence supporting leprechauns and you decide that they don't exist. You look at the evidence supporting DNA and you decide that it does exist. It's the same with God. You look at the evidence and take a stand. You don't claim, "I accept that I will never be able to prove this debate 100% so I'm just not going to bother. As regards God, I have no opinion".
Why is an agnostic not willing to make the call on God without 100% proof either way, but yet has no problem making stands on other issues like leprechauns, or Zeus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Why do people only describe themselves as being agnostic when it comes to believing in a god as descibed in the Bible, or the Koran, or one the other big religions? To be logically consistent, an agnostic needs to describe him or herself as agnostic about everything. For me, looking at agnosticism this way really showed me that I was willing to believe, or dis-believe in plenty of things without 100% certainty of my position - be them scientific or supernatural. So while I think it is possible to assert that you cannot prove that God exists or not, you either believe or you don't based on the evidence you have. There is not middle ground. Anyway, once I passed that point I knew I could still believe without being 100% sure, it allowed me the freedom to personalize my faith. Suddenly my personal experiences became valid and acceptable things to include in my bucket of "proof". It allowed my emotional side to come into play. News flash - I do have an emotional side, no matter how small it might be :P
This was really the launching point for where I think I am today. I find, moreoften than not, that God speaks to me more profoundly through His creation than he does in the Bible or in Church. Looking for God's presence in nature, or in other people, I find has really helped me take all those words in the Bible or spoken in Church and make them mine. I can't help but wonder that the feeling I get when doing something selfless for someone else, or admiring a beautiful sunset while flyfishing on a river, or hugging my kids isn't my soul resonating at a note that it was made to play. You can't think your way to that kind of experience. You have to be willing and ready to receive it.
8 comments:
Great post Darren. You did not so much steal my thunder as created your own and allowed me to watch a movie instead of writing a post like yours.
I have hinted at this same idea in a few of my previous posts as well as a comment to my post "Does this make sense to you?"
I had started on atheism a bit as you know but I am really going further in my thoughts on agnosticism than I had before. Before I simply knew it was unsatisfying to me and overall unuseful but as I think on it now, I want to flesh that out. I may hold off on talking about atheism for a bit to keep considering agnosticism for a while. In my mind it is one of those times where I do not want to move forward until I am convinced I am on solid ground.
Anyway, great post.
DC, I appreciate your post and while I agree with it, permit me to be a bit cheeky here.
If you hold the agnostic accountable for living in a state of contradiction - doesn't it follow that the agnostic can hold you accountable for your contradiction in the exact same way? Believers claim, and I'm one them, to believe in something without 100% proof - does it follow that we believe in everything that may seem likely or persuasive but doesn't have 100% proof? That would be silly. I feel like I've written this before...
Some things we only permit ourselves to believe in WITH 100% proof. For example, the meteorologist told me there is a 85% chance of rain but to be honest, I only believe it when I actually see the rain fall.
In short, if you demand logical consistency from the agnostic, he or she can rightfully demand the exact same consistency from you, the believer. I think we are all creatures of contradiction.
I'm just trying to push you further here, forgive me....
Actaully Tan, I dont think it is silly at all. I consistently apply less than 100% certainty to most of the things I believe and I dont think there is anything unreasonable about that. Furthermore, I apply different level of required certainty depending on the importance of the matter. I am likely to take the weatherman completely at his word that there is roughly 85% chance of rain. No other proof required. However, the consequences of my being wrong are not significant. As well, while I take the weatherman at his word and bring an umbrella, I am under no illusions that he could very well be wrong. I simply take that chance because it does not effect me much either way.
YOu don't understand what I'm saying...I'm saying that the believer is okay with believing in things with less than 100% assurance but this isn't true all of the time. Sometimes I need 100% assurability to believe it - does that mean I'm a walking contradiction? Sometimes I need all the proof and other times I don't? I think we all live with contradictory logic - the agnostic is not alone in this.
Darren,
Thanks for the post. Didn't read it until now..
A problem I still have is everyone seems to think theism = the Christian God, but it most certainly does not. A muslim has the same "feelings" as you do, the same convictions, and yet his/her god is Allah, not Jehovah. A hindu has the same "feelings" as you do, the same convictions, and yet his/her god(s) is Vishnu and variants.
Atheism = No God.
Agnostic = No Choice
Theistic = Jehovah, Allah, Vishnu, etc..
Thoughts?
Alex I completely agree with you. And I do not equate a beleif in god with a belief in the Christian God. As you point out, they are not the same position.
I think it would be fair to say that this is the area where I find myself seraching for some more answers, and they do not come easy.
I will say this. Alot of my searching on this front has been around trying to live out, as best I can, the life I think that God as described in the Bible would want me to live. This has nothing to do with going to church, reading the Bible or all the other stuff that I think many people confuse as being a prerequisite of Christianity. When I strip all the religious crap away and really try to seek out the things God is trying to show me in everyday life that I sense a harmony between that and how I interpret God as described in the Bible. Maybe coincidence, but I think not.
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